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	<title>Comments on: Something to be proud of?</title>
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		<title>By: prestwickuk</title>
		<link>http://hard-graft.net/2010/02/something-to-be-proud-of/comment-page-1/#comment-855</link>
		<dc:creator>prestwickuk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Feb 2010 14:41:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hard-graft.net/?p=1595#comment-855</guid>
		<description>@Greg: Those points were coherent and are well made. When I studied up in Scotland, I was struck at the civic nature of Scotland&#039;s patriotism when they weren&#039;t talking about England. England seems to distort a lot of things culture and history wise up in Scotland. For example, many Scots cite the ancient Picts for being the only tribe who could stand up to the Romans. Point being that the English celts at the time just rolled over (and apart from one or two from my native East Anglia thats exactly what happened). 
 
But what nobody mentions is what happened to the Picts after the Romans left. In the end they were annihilated by Irish celts who forced their way in from Western Scotland and basically eliminated the cave dwelling mauraders who had caused the Romans so much grief. Nobody mentions that however because the Irish aren&#039;t English. 
 
England on the other hand doesn&#039;t have this sense of civic pride because everything from Isambard Kingdom Brunel (awesome) all the way to Clive of India (thug, bad guy, etc) seemingly gets lumped into one taboo area: should you celebrate the guy&#039;s acheivements AND his nationality? The French and Italians have no qualms about doing that and they have equally as shameful historical events/fiascos as we do.  
 
I think its the general lack of confidence and mistrust of anyone in authority exhibited by us across the British Isles that feeds this guilt.  
 
If Britain were Tom Cruise, we&#039;d be having a &quot;crisis of confidence.&quot; </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Greg: Those points were coherent and are well made. When I studied up in Scotland, I was struck at the civic nature of Scotland&#039;s patriotism when they weren&#039;t talking about England. England seems to distort a lot of things culture and history wise up in Scotland. For example, many Scots cite the ancient Picts for being the only tribe who could stand up to the Romans. Point being that the English celts at the time just rolled over (and apart from one or two from my native East Anglia thats exactly what happened). </p>
<p>But what nobody mentions is what happened to the Picts after the Romans left. In the end they were annihilated by Irish celts who forced their way in from Western Scotland and basically eliminated the cave dwelling mauraders who had caused the Romans so much grief. Nobody mentions that however because the Irish aren&#039;t English. </p>
<p>England on the other hand doesn&#039;t have this sense of civic pride because everything from Isambard Kingdom Brunel (awesome) all the way to Clive of India (thug, bad guy, etc) seemingly gets lumped into one taboo area: should you celebrate the guy&#039;s acheivements AND his nationality? The French and Italians have no qualms about doing that and they have equally as shameful historical events/fiascos as we do.  </p>
<p>I think its the general lack of confidence and mistrust of anyone in authority exhibited by us across the British Isles that feeds this guilt.  </p>
<p>If Britain were Tom Cruise, we&#039;d be having a &quot;crisis of confidence.&quot; </p>
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		<title>By: Greg</title>
		<link>http://hard-graft.net/2010/02/something-to-be-proud-of/comment-page-1/#comment-853</link>
		<dc:creator>Greg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Feb 2010 13:49:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hard-graft.net/?p=1595#comment-853</guid>
		<description>I think, in Britain, there&#039;s always been this general sense of distrust if someone tries to speak up hopefully, especially a person of prominence.  Does that make sense?  I wish I could quantify that, but it&#039;s really a general feeling I&#039;ve always had.  There&#039;s this grey fatalistic shadow that we like to keep hovering over everything, like some sort of punishment we place on ourselves for our nation being so prominent.   
 
My great-grandfather was Scottish, and I spent quite a bit of my time with him when I was younger, both in his home near Scotland Road (yes, I know) in Liverpool, or his birthplace - where our family came from - in Inverness, and your point about nationalism in Scotland rings true for me as much as anything.  And the disparity you would see, with the people who had grown up and worked like my great-grandfather, and even sacrificed as he had, and the people who think something isn&#039;t &quot;Scottish&quot; enough or expressing these nationalistic views.  I think the sad thing is, is how little we - and I say we as someone who spent just as much of his time growing up in London, and his attachment to Scotland is only through his last name and his great-grandfather, so it&#039;s a tenuous connection at best - how little we understand our culture as it actually is.  We have this idea in our heads of what our culture is, but I can&#039;t help feeling and even seeing how little we actually know or want to know about it.  Not just the Scots, but the English, the Welsh and the Irish as well. 
 
My wife is Irish, and still living there; she works in Belfast but was born in and her family lives in Wicklow.  I suppose that&#039;s why you saw me speak a little strongly in regards to a certain political paramilitary group some weeks back.  The idea, with some splinters of that group trying to start up again, that she could be harmed because she&#039;s not &quot;Irish&quot; enough because of her relationship with someone across a small sea between two islands... is a little frightening. 
 
That&#039;s what the national identity debate is in the UK.  It isn&#039;t about whether you&#039;re English, or Scottish, or Welsh, or Cornish, or anything; it&#039;s about your relationship with your neighboring nationalities.  The debate is never about just saying, &quot;I&#039;m English,&quot; it&#039;s always seemed to be about telling -everyone else- you are.  It isn&#039;t about pride, or history, but some sort of enforcement on how different you are from every &quot;lesser&quot; person around you.  It&#039;s xenophobia and prejudice, and it&#039;s why a mayor in London will say, &quot;We don&#039;t do that sort of thing here,&quot; and why the fascist-party-with-new-stickers BNP continues to have its member base.  People feel guilty about it not because we feel guilty about being English (or Scottish, etc.), or about our history (well, maybe a little there), but because of what the topic is used for instead. 
 
So it&#039;s guilt, really, and we&#039;ve spread it to everything.  Whether it&#039;s our cultural identities or our involvement with our former colonies, we&#039;ve let our attitude be hijacked by people who give us no good will or represent our actual opinion.  But it&#039;s our fault for letting them affect that.  I&#039;d like to think we&#039;re changing, though; look at the relatively recent High Court ruling regarding the long struggles of Gurkha soldiers and gaining citizenship and residency.  It&#039;s small steps, but I like to think that every once in a while we start to show something. 
 
I&#039;m sorry for this rather scatterbrained post, I sort of jumped everywhere.  I hope it makes some bit of sense... somewhere. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think, in Britain, there&#039;s always been this general sense of distrust if someone tries to speak up hopefully, especially a person of prominence.  Does that make sense?  I wish I could quantify that, but it&#039;s really a general feeling I&#039;ve always had.  There&#039;s this grey fatalistic shadow that we like to keep hovering over everything, like some sort of punishment we place on ourselves for our nation being so prominent.   </p>
<p>My great-grandfather was Scottish, and I spent quite a bit of my time with him when I was younger, both in his home near Scotland Road (yes, I know) in Liverpool, or his birthplace &#8211; where our family came from &#8211; in Inverness, and your point about nationalism in Scotland rings true for me as much as anything.  And the disparity you would see, with the people who had grown up and worked like my great-grandfather, and even sacrificed as he had, and the people who think something isn&#039;t &quot;Scottish&quot; enough or expressing these nationalistic views.  I think the sad thing is, is how little we &#8211; and I say we as someone who spent just as much of his time growing up in London, and his attachment to Scotland is only through his last name and his great-grandfather, so it&#039;s a tenuous connection at best &#8211; how little we understand our culture as it actually is.  We have this idea in our heads of what our culture is, but I can&#039;t help feeling and even seeing how little we actually know or want to know about it.  Not just the Scots, but the English, the Welsh and the Irish as well. </p>
<p>My wife is Irish, and still living there; she works in Belfast but was born in and her family lives in Wicklow.  I suppose that&#039;s why you saw me speak a little strongly in regards to a certain political paramilitary group some weeks back.  The idea, with some splinters of that group trying to start up again, that she could be harmed because she&#039;s not &quot;Irish&quot; enough because of her relationship with someone across a small sea between two islands&#8230; is a little frightening. </p>
<p>That&#039;s what the national identity debate is in the UK.  It isn&#039;t about whether you&#039;re English, or Scottish, or Welsh, or Cornish, or anything; it&#039;s about your relationship with your neighboring nationalities.  The debate is never about just saying, &quot;I&#039;m English,&quot; it&#039;s always seemed to be about telling -everyone else- you are.  It isn&#039;t about pride, or history, but some sort of enforcement on how different you are from every &quot;lesser&quot; person around you.  It&#039;s xenophobia and prejudice, and it&#039;s why a mayor in London will say, &quot;We don&#039;t do that sort of thing here,&quot; and why the fascist-party-with-new-stickers BNP continues to have its member base.  People feel guilty about it not because we feel guilty about being English (or Scottish, etc.), or about our history (well, maybe a little there), but because of what the topic is used for instead. </p>
<p>So it&#039;s guilt, really, and we&#039;ve spread it to everything.  Whether it&#039;s our cultural identities or our involvement with our former colonies, we&#039;ve let our attitude be hijacked by people who give us no good will or represent our actual opinion.  But it&#039;s our fault for letting them affect that.  I&#039;d like to think we&#039;re changing, though; look at the relatively recent High Court ruling regarding the long struggles of Gurkha soldiers and gaining citizenship and residency.  It&#039;s small steps, but I like to think that every once in a while we start to show something. </p>
<p>I&#039;m sorry for this rather scatterbrained post, I sort of jumped everywhere.  I hope it makes some bit of sense&#8230; somewhere. </p>
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		<title>By: Albone</title>
		<link>http://hard-graft.net/2010/02/something-to-be-proud-of/comment-page-1/#comment-854</link>
		<dc:creator>Albone</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Feb 2010 13:12:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hard-graft.net/?p=1595#comment-854</guid>
		<description>Man, you write the best OP ED pieces. I don&#039;t think I ever have much to contribute to the conversation but I always find your topics worthwhile and interesting. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Man, you write the best OP ED pieces. I don&#39;t think I ever have much to contribute to the conversation but I always find your topics worthwhile and interesting. </p>
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		<title>By: prestwickuk</title>
		<link>http://hard-graft.net/2010/02/something-to-be-proud-of/comment-page-1/#comment-850</link>
		<dc:creator>prestwickuk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Feb 2010 03:19:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hard-graft.net/?p=1595#comment-850</guid>
		<description>Ah...quite! hahaha </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ah&#8230;quite! hahaha </p>
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		<title>By: iwfish</title>
		<link>http://hard-graft.net/2010/02/something-to-be-proud-of/comment-page-1/#comment-847</link>
		<dc:creator>iwfish</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Feb 2010 22:08:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hard-graft.net/?p=1595#comment-847</guid>
		<description>Uh, yeah, that would be Phil Silvers. LOL </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Uh, yeah, that would be Phil Silvers. LOL </p>
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